Vote and Discuss!

Christian and Ziggler is a match I've been looking for since even befor the possibility of them facing each other in the finals of that IC Title tournament last month. This was a pretty cool match and was really the only good choice in my opinion for the show. It came down to the opener and this match, and since I was disgusted with Rey going over Swagger cleanly...I didn't pay attention until Christian and Ziggler went at it. It's cool because they have so many more spots and I think at least a match or two for PPV to go nuts with...I'd like to see that happen.

I was glad Rey went over Swagger cleanly as Swagger sucks.

Yeah I know you don't want the World Champion to look weak but Swagger has no business being Champ.

I voted Christian vs Ziggler as well.

Yea, I'm not a Swagger mark really too much...I do like him a bit. I don't think he should have the title right now, but considering the situation...I'd expect him to be in a match like this if he were not champion, it would be a perfect match for him to show off regardless of him being champion I think. His recent comparisons to Angle by people are preposterous on so many levels, which is why some people have created a bandwagon of hate for Swagger it seems like. I dunno why, the guy has a pretty sweet moveset, is freakin' huge but not unreal like Lashley, and he's actually got kind of a tounge-in-cheek undertone to his gimmick.

I like him overall, but yes to answer you Kondor...I just was not happy with how he lost to Rey cleanly...mostly because he's lost a few matches cleanly as World Champion and I think it's getting a little too repetitive for my liking. The element of surprise for the guy beating him in a non-title match has worn off at least for me since he's lost to Randy Orton, Undertaker and/or Big Show, and now Rey Mysterio in non-title matches.

I agree with what you said, Fish. The comparison of him to Angle, or even to Backlund (another amateur) that I've also heard are invalid; because those two are light years better. And I have always felt that a World Champion should be a step above most everyone else in the locker room. What it means to be a World Champion has diminished.

And I agree that Swagger loosing (more specifically the World Champion loosing) to so many people is generally bad an devalues the Title; but like I said before The All American American shouldn't be Champion in the first place. Both his Title win and his MITB win was bullshit. Not only were there other more qualified wrestlers in the MITB; but with his Title win it makes the Heavyweight Championship of the World an even bigger hot potato than it was before.

Jack Swagger is an even weaker Champion than JBL.

He is pretty weak, but then it's not unrealistic. I mean, winning MITB is a coin toss anyway given the ten guys and countless bumps involved, it's all down to luck who manages to unhook the case. He cashed it in while Jericho was down from a spear while already injured from only five nights before when he put on a WrestleMania performance. Jericho was in no fit state to compete, Swagger may as well have stolen the belt. Since then Swagger has lost the majority of his matches, proving he has no business being champion...but that's the point. He is weak, we all know it, he knows it, and it makes us all believe that sooner or later Big Show is going to beat him. Swagger can only duck him for so long.

So yeah, Swagger is a weak champion, but that's why I quite like him. It's not like he's bad, he's just not being portrayed as a top guy. MITB has never been for established stars anyway, he is a midcarder in a main eventer's world.

As for comparisons to Angle, I think they're mostly based on look. Well, ring attire. He's wearing the red, white and blue singlets. He's got the amateur background too. It does look like they wanted another American hero character to fill Angle's void, but there just isn't anyone good enough to really be Angle.

So, wait...wouldn't passing around a title more make it a smaller hot potato? I would definitely be taking a bite outta that sumbitch every time I saw it!

Yep. Jericho had it for quite a while, Swagger has had it for a couple of months and looks to hold it for a couple more...it's not being hot potatoed at all.

Jericho only had it for 37 days. Swagger has already doubled that with 76 days. I'll say Swagger will have it til SummerSlam.

It's being hot potatoed because a mid carder won it. Swagger's victory says that anyone, including someone not on World Championship level, can win it; thus making a worse hot potato than ever. I'd rather have five deserving World Champions in one year than have one weak Champion hold it for an extended period of time. Yes, the Title is changing hands a few times a year. But if you look at the men who have had it (Jericho [first World Title 2001], Undertaker [first World Title 1991], Punk [first World Title 2007 if you count ECW], John Cena [first World Title 2005], Edge [first World Title 2006]). Besides Jeff Hardy (who first became a Champion in 2008), it's the same core of people holding the belt for several years. Granted, I'm not happy it's being traded between all of them; but at least it was "hot potatoed" among mostly deserving people. A new entrant into that World Championship "hot potatoes" it even worse and group lessens the belt's whole value.

But a hot potato is something that is passed quickly. You can't hold a hot potato for long, that's the point. Swagger holding it longer than Jericho (estd. 2001) means the potato has cooled.

You're calling Swagger a midcarder even though he's clearly the world champion. He's a main eventer by default now. New stars have to be made, and he's been or being made right now. Edge got his world title from MITB, RVD got his with it, Punk too, and Kennedy was supposed to get his the same way. Swagger winning it cheaply doesn't make him unworthy, he's holding onto the belt one way or another. It's no different to Sheamus' reign on Raw, it wasn't dominant and he could be accused of being lucky, but he held and defended the belt like any other champion, and for longer than a lot of established guys have managed to in the past.

I'm not really following your reasoning there either, honestly Kondor. Swagger may not deserve the title quite yet but I feel like he's got talent to have it eventually...and an early world title reign is just a test run with some people (see: Randy Orton in 2004 and AJ Styles in the early days of TNA.)

If I understand what you're saying Kondor, you're not looking for any new contenders but maybe one or two every five years (like Edge and CM Punk being your main examples.) I don't see any better way to elevate Swagger to the World Title picture than to give him a title reign no matter how short it is. Ironically enough, Strung taught this to me with the Fish character in 4CW the hard way and it eventually hit me that it was genius of him to do what he did...Fish ended up being a World Champion for a week and damn near overnight (really, over the course of that summer), Fish became a big dog in 4CW after being a straight noob before that summer started.

My point is that not everyone deserves a title reign when their starting out, much less a world title reign...but it seems like we can't just have a mold for everyone to follow and a certain yellow brick road for every single soon-to-be star to go down...there are several. I like that. Swagger may not go over in the long run, but on the other hand, Kane is one of the most over gimmicks in WWE since The Undertaker and he was only World Champion once and for 24 hours. He's constantly been either a world title contender, an IC title contender, or at least a gatekeeper for mid-carders to creep into the world title picture.

I think a weak champion (character/experience wise at least) is fine sometimes, at rare times. It gives them instant credbility in my mind and in most casual fans' minds...and winning matches, especially most of the non-title matches their in will only solidify what the fans think...thus, why I wasn't happy with his recent loss. I mean, 1 is fine...two in a row kinda got on my nerves...then, this one on his own show in the opening match was really weak sauce. Speaking of weak...it was to Rey mothafuckin' Mysterio! The wrestling pokeman himself! Jeez! :facepalm

And you hated me forever for stripping you of the belt, haha.

Basically, I wanted the GM to come in, take over, and strip ALL of the champions in heel fashion and start a new era in 4CW. The only problem was the world champion was aligned with the boss, so I needed someone to beat him. Why not take the new guy and push him to the top.

But that shit doesn't translate into the real world, Im afraid.

Swagger blows testicles.

I see your point there, so maybe "hot potato" isn't the exact term to portray my thoughts. So let me use another term. "Too many hands in the pot". There, that should make sense to you. The more hands in the pot there is, the less the value of being on the pot has. Call it World Title hyperinflation.



"Clearly the World Champion", lol. Yes, I can see the physical belt over his shoulder as he bores me on the mic. But he's not World Championship material in my eyes. He deserves to be a mid carder at best. And actually, no, he's not a main eventer by default. The main event of this Smackdown was Show vs Punk and nobody missed Swagger in the main event. It wouldn't surprise me if he's left off the main event slot next week also. At least on Raw Cena has been consistent in the main event slot for five years going.



Of course new stars have to be made; but there is a way to do that without putting a belt on someone and I have never been a fan of using a belt to make a star instead of using a star to make a belt. How many complained when Santino won the Intercontinental belt from Umaga in his very first match? If you want Jack Swagger to be a top star; then have him earn it. And I mean more than just booking him for a clean win. I mean have him prove himself in the ring time and time again and slowly rise up in the imaginary rankings in every fan's mind. So that when [insert name of wrestler here] does win his first World Title they don't have to have him capitalize on a weakened World Champion as Swagger did Y2J. When people like Shawn Micheals and Kurt Angle won their first World Titles it they made believable Champions. Swagger at this time does not.

And if by "new star" you're referring to a new World Champion then you're even more wrong in my opinion. Right now, even with Undertaker out, Helmsley doing who knows what, and Batista & HBK retired; they have Cena, Jericho, Orton, Sheamus, Punk, Khali, Kane, Rey, Edge, and Big Show as current or former World Champions. And any of them would make credible challengers to any belt the company has (and can easily jump these imaginary dividing lines of brands that you for some reason always insist exist). That's enough for a main event division.



I'm not even really saying he's unworthy based on how he won (although that is a factor). I'm saying it based on his wrestling level; at least by how the scriptwriters have him at. It's not believable that Swagger can beat the entire WWE locker room; and a World Champion should be able to. He was buried by Undertaker just a few days after he became Champion. which mean that it was made to look even less believable that he's a credible Champion. I'll further illustrate my point after your next line I'm quoting.



It IS different than Sheamus' reign; because while you say Sheamus wasn't dominant he was moreso than Swagger is. Imagine a match between Sheamus and Undertaker. Suspend disbelief and it's a pretty even matchup. Now imagine Swagger vs Taker. Swagger was buried. Now imagine Sheamus vs Cena. Say what you want about how Cena can't properly apply an STFU nor any other hold; but once again if you suspend disbelief it's a relatively even matchup. Now imagine Swagger vs Cena. It plays out with Cena overpowering Swagger relatively quickly and FUing/Attitude Adjusting him down for either a pin or a squirm out the ring. Cena is dominant. Thus Swagger is a weak Champion; thus Swagger is an undeserving Champion. Sheamus is not my first choice to have been Champion; but at least he makes a ten times more credible one than Swagger.

Swagger would be okay as Intercontinental Champion or U.S. Champion. He was fine as ECW Champion. But a major World Championship in professional wrestling at least at this time, no.

And bringing up past examples of cheap Title wins actually only makes my point even further. If cheap wins of a World Title made by upper mid card wrestlers are the norm than the WWE has an even bigger problem.



Yes but Orton in 2004 was better than Swagger in 2010; and even then many said Orton's first Title run was not successful.



It's not so much that I'm not looking for any new contenders; it's that I'm not looking for any new Champions. I agree with you; a new one every two to five is fine; but even by that criteria we have a plethora of them. And it shouldn't be "It's been three years and two and a half months since we've crowned a new World Champion; let's put the belt on someone else." It should be, "This guy here has climbed up the ladder and proven himself in the ring, and he just might have risen so high that he's better than our current Champion. Let's put the well deserved belt on him in a great wrestling match."

Call me old fashioned; but that's what I think.



Well first off; why is it a given that he has to be elevated to the World Title picture?

Second, yeah there are ways. Give him an Intercontinental run. Or put him in the ring with someone who's already an established main event player like Orton or Cena and have him hold his own, having good matches with them; like Shawn Micheals did with Bret Hart and Sting did with Ric Flair before they beat them. Then, he might be ready if The All American American is the man you want to have.



The path is irrelevant; it's the end result that matters. And the end result is a believable Champion that it seems like he can beat anyone in the back on any given night the way Hulk Hogan seemed in the 80's and Bruno Sammartino seemed in the 70's. Not a wrestler merely holding a Championship belt.



If you're not sure he'll go over that's another reason he shouldn't be Champion. Wait till you are sure.



Kane is dominant and fits into that "Brock Lesnar" mold where he was packaged as unstoppable monster upon his debut; thus he made a more credible Champion. If they'd have booked Swagger that way where he wrestles circles around everyone and beats them in seconds I wouldn't be complaining. And Kane would be a contender today and for the past 12 years with or without that one day Title reign.



I can't stand weak Champions; it does not give them legit credibility because like I said the wrestler should make the belt and not the belt the wrestler; and Rey is someone who recently had a series of victories over CM Punk.

All of this is why I'd rather watch wrestling from 1970 than today.

Kondor I agree with you partly here, I think the trend of money in the bank winners being "ultimate opportunists" and winning the title against weakened opponents and then going on to be booked to be shit against the main eventers is a bad way of building future stars. I would like one MITB winner to trade it in properly, get some victories in against better people until he is ready and then cash the belt in. This way they could put on one hell of a match and marginally lose, but benefit more in terms of the way they are viewed by the fans than if they pinned an already beaten man.

The Sheamus title run is a lot different to Swaggers, Sheamus came out of knowhere and although he didn't win many matches clean he consistantly brutalised main eventers and beat them down. Jack Swagger was on one mega losing streak downer, creative have made it almost impossible for the fans to believe in him.